Ross Sullivan

Ross Sullivan Discussion

Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby morf13 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:28 pm

I'll bring this video up, first responder taking Bryan's account relaying the info at the time, not years later like Collins did,3 minutes in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgNpIP8p0ww

"Big guy,6ft or better, over 200lbs".


We can go round and round about height,weight,etc...there will not be a resolution. People that want to see if Ross was Zodiac, and people that want to write him off.

In fairness,let's make a checklist of pros vs cons of Ross possibly being Z:

PROS-
*Looked identical to sketch of Z

*Was heavy to some degree,whether he was chubby,fat,muscular,stocky,whatever

*Was in the RCC Library where Zodiac's writing was linked,and where Cheri was killed outside of

*Knew Cheri Jo Bates

*Left for Bay area after Bates had to die letters were received, and then there was never another Bates letter

*His own Brother thought he might be Z,for reasons unknown to us

*May have been out of Santa Cruz for the important timeline of Z activity

*Witness saw him go nuts in an apartment and try to get a knife

*Studied & wrote a paper about how to write with different styles,something Z did

*Suffered from mental illness

Cons:

*May have been too tall

*Cant be placed in Vallejo area

Did I miss anything?
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Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby Tahoe27 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:45 pm

Yes, of course there are more cons. Feel free to go back and read the many, many points of reasoning for such. :)

I have absolutely no argument in regards to the man's size at LB. Just to be clear though...are we talking about the cop at the LB shoreline? Some of what he said is bogus too, according to Bryan.
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Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby morf13 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:57 pm

doranchak wrote:
morf13 wrote:1) Ross can't be placed in Vallejo. That's been established, but he can't be ruled out as being there. We know Ross was in Santa Cruz in 1968 due to the arrest and witness interview I did. We know he lived there in 1977 when he died. Why does his death cert say he was a Santa Cruz county resident for only 3 years,back to 1974??? Could that possibly mean that he lived in another county? If so,which one?

I've thought about this. One explanation is that whoever wrote up the vital records just didn't have enough residence history info about Ross to go beyond 3 years. It doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't in Santa Cruz prior to those 3 years. Maybe he was in and out of mental hospitals so much, that the nursing home he eventually settled in lost track of his history.

There are no funeral or death notices for him in the Santa Cruz papers, for which there are plentiful copies to search through on newspapers.com. This suggests his next of kin might not have been keenly involved in dealing with his passing, or providing accurate info for the vital record.

Also, if his mental health history was protected by privacy laws, would that info also be kept from the vital records? Maybe the vital records office is obligated to leave out residency info for periods of time in which the person is committed to a mental health facility. The fact that we can't find much of a paper trail for him between 1968 and 1974 is highly supportive of him being stuck in a mental health facility somewhere. His father died in August 1968, so perhaps that accelerated his mental health decline. ...or maybe he went on a killing spree.

Discovering his commitment records would quickly rule him out. But we'll never get those. So around and around we keep going!

Did anyone ever try to track down his possible roommate(s) Terry, Cindy and Phillip Kennedy? viewtopic.php?p=39979#p39979


Dave, you may be entirely correct. All I want to do is verify this info,and I am afraid we never will.
I personally have tried to reach out to the Jette lady that allowed Ross to live in her apartment and others tried to reach Bonnie,Ross's sister in law,but nobody had any luck.
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Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby Marshall » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:58 pm

morf13 wrote:I'll bring this video up, first responder taking Bryan's account relaying the info at the time, not years later like Collins did,3 minutes in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgNpIP8p0ww

"Big guy,6ft or better, over 200lbs".


We can go round and round about height,weight,etc...there will not be a resolution. People that want to see if Ross was Zodiac, and people that want to write him off.

In fairness,let's make a checklist of pros vs cons of Ross possibly being Z:

PROS-
*Looked identical to sketch of Z

*Was heavy to some degree,whether he was chubby,fat,muscular,stocky,whatever

*Was in the RCC Library where Zodiac's writing was linked,and where Cheri was killed outside of

*Knew Cheri Jo Bates

*Left for Bay area after Bates had to die letters were received, and then there was never another Bates letter

*His own Brother thought he might be Z,for reasons unknown to us

*May have been out of Santa Cruz for the important timeline of Z activity

*Witness saw him go nuts in an apartment and try to get a knife

*Studied & wrote a paper about how to write with different styles,something Z did

*Suffered from mental illness

Cons:

*May have been too tall

*Cant be placed in Vallejo area

Did I miss anything?


First of all, one solid "con" outweigh (so to speak) a thousand "pros", if that "con" cannot be explained away somehow.

Second, not all "pros" and "cons" are equal. You can't just add them up and see which list is longer. If the guy is 6 inches too tall, it isn't him- period. All you can do there is challenge the witnesses but the fact is, unless you're Harry Potter, you can't shrink your height that much. So, saying "He might have been too tall" is far more significant than "Suffered from mental illness." Being too tall is a flat-out deal breaker.

At PH, you need to assume the teenagers both misjudged Z's height by a full 6 inches, even though they were close enough to Z to help create the facial sketch, in which you put a great deal of confidence. Obviously you think they may have done that - gotten the sketch near-perfect, while botching the height estimate to a ridiculous degree. I don't, I think they were close enough and focused enough and competent enough to not make such a huge mistake.

I do appreciate the discussion but I don't have anything more to add. You're entitled to your opinion and I'll leave it at that.
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Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby 1doctor » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:17 pm

morf13 wrote:I'll bring this video up, first responder taking Bryan's account relaying the info at the time, not years later like Collins did,3 minutes in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgNpIP8p0ww

"Big guy,6ft or better, over 200lbs".


We can go round and round about height,weight,etc...there will not be a resolution. People that want to see if Ross was Zodiac, and people that want to write him off.


Not really. Mike, I'm only asking a question: why do the people who know Ross all say he's nearly 300lbs, but none of the other witnesses do? Saying "well above 200lbs" from one witness is not the same as all the other witnesses not coming close to his weight. We're only going round and round for one reason. Why are all the witnesses who saw Z report a different weight than all the witnesses who saw Ross?


PROS-
*Looked identical to sketch of Z

*Was heavy to some degree,whether he was chubby,fat,muscular,stocky,whatever

*His own Brother thought he might be Z,for reasons unknown to us

*May have been out of Santa Cruz for the important timeline of Z activity

*Witness saw him go nuts in an apartment and try to get a knife

*Studied & wrote a paper about how to write with different styles,something Z did


I agree with this amended list above.

But let's talk about your witnesses you mentioned in the above. If you want to use a witness testimony to support your argument, then we must use it all.

Let's start with this one

*Witness saw him go nuts in an apartment and try to get a knife

(link: viewtopic.php?f=106&t=2662&start=20#p40301)

Witness states to you:
While there in the apartment, Ross became irrational, and was caught eating a stick of butter. When confronted, he pulled a knife from the drawer and came after one of the residents,and tried to stab him. He wound up embedding the knife in the doorway frame. The Resident was barely able to get out and they all made it outside, and called police


Same witness further states:

Physically, he said, he thought Ross was less than 300 pounds, maybe more like 250-260, but he said that Ross definitely had a belly or gut.


You say there's no weight discrepancy issues, but your own witness has one! Ross definitely had a belly and was 250-260lbs, no where near what any of the Z witnesses state. Why does not a single person say "250-260" when we haven't had a person who does know Ross ever state he weighs below 250.

What else did this witness say?

He said that Ross, in his opinion, was completely mentally gone. He had a general knowledge of the Zodiac case, and thought that Z would have to have some faculties to write letters to the police,etc,something he did not think Ross had.


This was all aprox circa 1970.

Not too long after,not sure of a date, this person went to visit a Friend who had schizophrenia at Agnews Hospital,and was shocked that he ran into Ross there. Hospital Staff wasked him if he wanted to visit with Ross,and even though he didn't really know Ross he said yes. He said that he thought Ross might be more coherent with care & meds,but he wasn't. He was still singing Beatles songs and banging on a piano,etc


This demonstrates two things: Ross was totally out of it for a long period of time, and we know Ross was in Agnews somewhere between 70-74.

Here's another witness of Ross:

(link: viewtopic.php?f=106&t=2662#p40038)

She did not think it likely that Ross could execute a plan: “he was so fat as to be passive, and to plan and execute anything seems unlikely”


Another witness stating how large he is. Why do all these witnesses notice how large Ross is, but every single other witness to Z gets it wrong?

I could also link to Katz statements. He also stated Ross was over 250lbs and that he lived in SF and Santa Cruz. No mention of anywhere else. He is also our only source stating Tim said he thinks Ross was Z (a statement I have no reason to doubt, I do believe he was told this by Tim), but that isn't quite evidence, either. Need I remind everyone the amount of people convinced their relative was Z?



All these witnesses stating Ross was too insane, too disconnected, and too heavy. They are directly stating he's too crazy and indirectly stating he's too heavy (since I am sure they are not aware of the Z case enough to know all the witnesses reports of weight, they are only providing their weight description of Ross that we compare to the Z witnesses)

So, I think it's more than fair to add "weight" and "mental illness" to the con section, given the evidence and testimony above.
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Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby Paul_Averly » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:52 pm

Tahoe27 wrote:
Paul_Averly wrote:
So again, why should we ignore the following:
https://youtu.be/DsSdjSywIhc


Because it was Collins and he was full of sh**.


Will do, I'll just not listen to any LE or first responders who were at the scene and make up any evidence I want. Earl Van, here I come!

"Ross was a very large, imposing schizophrenic who was lost in delusion for periods of time."


I will believe this however, since many professionals believed that Zodiac was a schizophrenic.

Baker told Blumenfeld that the killer was most likely not a homosexual but that he was unquestionably paranoid and schizophrenic.

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/PsychPortraits.htm
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Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby 1doctor » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:23 pm

Paul_Averly wrote:
Tahoe27 wrote:
Paul_Averly wrote:
So again, why should we ignore the following:
https://youtu.be/DsSdjSywIhc


Because it was Collins and he was full of sh**.


Will do, I'll just not listen to any LE or first responders who were at the scene and make up any evidence I want. Earl Van, here I come!

"Ross was a very large, imposing schizophrenic who was lost in delusion for periods of time."


I will believe this however, since many professionals believed that Zodiac was a schizophrenic.

Baker told Blumenfeld that the killer was most likely not a homosexual but that he was unquestionably paranoid and schizophrenic.

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/PsychPortraits.htm



Fine, why not believe any of the other witnesses above who all indirectly state Ross was too big? From every single witness any of us have found who've given a description of Ross, none have listed his weight below 250lbs. None of the witnesses of Z have listed him being anywhere near 250lbs. The closest one is "he was well over 200lbs."

So by this path of logic, why is it you don't seem to believe a single individual who knows Ross who stated he was 250lbs+? Every single one of them guessed he was bigger than he really was? Or was everyone who saw Z wrong, and every single one of them estimated his weight to be 50lbs (or more) off?

We aren't making up evidence, in fact it's the opposite: We are taking all of the evidence in regard and there's a very big problem regarding his weight. There has yet to be a good answer provided as why all the Z witnesses give a range of weight they estimate Z to be in, and all of the people who Ross knows gives us a very good range Ross was weighed in at, and these two ranges never converge. Why?

How can you use a witnesses testimony as evidence for Ross, then later exclude parts of the same testimony from the same witness?


Let me phrase it another way:

We all surely acknowledge by now that Ross weighed at a minimum of 250lbs. We have multiple statements from many people with various relations to Ross, and none of them give us a weight less than 250, so I think it's fair to use 250lbs as our starting point. With so many people stating his weight to be that much, we must conclude one of two things:

1) Everyone (his friends/family/etc who gave accounts to us) was wrong, and he weighed less than 250
2) Everyone was right and he weighed at least 250.

I think it's easy to conclude that number 2 is the most logical explanation.


Now, we do have varying reports of what Z looked like from people we believe may have seen the actual killer. None of them, however, come anywhere close to 250lbs. So we must then conclude one of two things:

1) Everyone who gave accounts of who they thought was Z all got his weight off by a matter of 50-70lbs.
2) Everyone saw an individual who weighed between 180-210lbs.

Again, I think the most logical explanation is number 2.


Then, we must mirror these two findings we conclude:

1) Everyone who saw Ross was correct about their report of him being at least 250lbs
2) Those who we believe saw Z are also correct with their estimate of the killer, placing his weight between 180-210lbs



Have I made up any evidence above? Have I ignored any evidence regarding Ross' weight or Z's weight? I don't believe Tahoe has and I don't believe I have, either.
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Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby morf13 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:30 pm

Here's the deal,and this has happened in the past for various topics & suspects, but you've made your posts and stated your opinion that Ross was too tall.
So perhaps, you can move on from this thread. I hate to see somebody,anybody, continue on in a thread posting about somebody they don't think was Zodiac,and debating others that think he may be.

Anybody that thinks Ross is not Z,for one reason or another,kindly move along to a suspect more to your liking,or maybe better yet, bring a viable one forward for discussion. I don't think Ted K, Mr X,or Gaikowski were Z,but I don't go into those sections to debate those that think they could be.

And as a final thought, this is straight from a police investigator, but it won't be a ID of a suspect that solves this case,or a writing match,or a solved code, it will be nothing short of a DNA or print match that closes this case, it won't be how tall somebody is or isn't.
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Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby morf13 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:34 pm

@1Doctor, Napa sheriff's dept felt that Z was "well over 200lbs", is 210lbs "well over" 200?

And make no mistake Ross may have been heavy,but he didn't look fat or obese in any of his pics, and not one of the people that saw him or knew him described him really called him fat or obese
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Re: Ross Sullivan

Postby Tahoe27 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:35 pm

Paul_Averly wrote:
Tahoe27 wrote:
Paul_Averly wrote:
So again, why should we ignore the following:
https://youtu.be/DsSdjSywIhc


Because it was Collins and he was full of sh**.


Will do, I'll just not listen to any LE or first responders who were at the scene and make up any evidence I want. Earl Van, here I come!


Do you believe it was Cecelia who gave the description for the LB sketch?
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