Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

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Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

Postby Soze » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:23 am

Recently I started listening to the criminology pod cast and finished episode 5 yesterday. Great job by the way. I have enjoyed it.

Anyway, it was reported that Cheri left her home sometime between 4:30/5:00 pm and was expected to be at RCC library. The drive is a reported 15 to 20 minutes and the library doesn't open until 6:00 pm. She is seen on Magnolia driving towards RCC at approximately 6:00 pm heading in the direction of RCC. The time gap between when she left her home and was seen on Magnolia at 6:00pm is approximately 40 minutes to 1 hour 10 minutes. Clearly Cheri made other stops.

Cheri is reported to have made a call to a coworker about a paper she misplaced at about 5:30 pm. It would seem to me that the bulk of the 40 minutes to 1 hour 10 minutes may have been spent looking for this lost paper.

Questions:

1. Has anyone looked into her activities in the 24 hours prior to her death and what that might be?
2. Does anyone know where she may have made a call to coworker?
3. Does anyone know where she was spotted on Magnolia at 6:00 pm?
4. Does anyone know if Cheri ever found that lost paper?

Cheri is next seen driving down alleyway beside RCC between 6:10 and 6:15 pm. Four men also see her at library parking area at 6:13 pm. Who says, aside from someone as specific as the zodiac, 6:13 pm? That's a rather odd statement by one or more of the 4 men.

No one sees Cheri in the library after 6:30 pm. The four men are still at their location until about 7:15 pm.

Questions:

1. Is there any reporting that one or more of the 4 men saw her between 6:30 and 7:15 pm. I am assuming no.
2. Do we have names for the 4 men?

When the patrons of the library left at 9:00 pm they reported seeing Cheri's car but not her. So here we have a gap of about 2 and a half hour from the time she was last seen at the library and when the library closed. Between 10:15 and 10:45 pm two residents nearby the crime scene heard a scream. Presumably this is the approximate time of Cheri's murder. So here we have an approximate gap of 3 hours 45 minutes to 4 hours 15 minutes from the time she was last seen at the library and when the scream was heard.

Reportedly, from the autopsy, Cheri ate between 2 and 4 hours prior to her death. It would seem that soon after leaving the library Cheri ate a snack or dinner. But how can this be if her car was disabled?

Questions:

1. Did RCC have a cafeteria and,, if so, was it close to the library and open?
2. Has anyone questioned authorities as to the type of meal Cheri might have ate prior to her death?
3. Was Riverside, during this period of time, the type of city that closed up (most businesses) by 8 pm?

Thanks,

Soze
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Re: Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

Postby YourSecretPal » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:16 am

Very Good questions and run-down of the timeline Soze
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Re: Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

Postby Tahoe27 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:42 am

via zodiackillerfacts - her autopsy report. Shows what she ate, and when:

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/galler ... p?pid=1016


Richard Grinell lays it out nicely here:

http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-new ... y-findings
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

Postby Dag MacLugh » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:18 pm

Soze: There was a time change the night Cheri was killed which, I believe, might be responsible for the confusion re the time lapse between the library's closing and the reported scream. (PS: It pisses me off no end that a scream so loud and desperate would not have been reported to the police immediately).
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Re: Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

Postby Richard Grinell » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:24 pm

Detective Sergeant David Bonine, stated that a close friend of Cheri Jo Bates saw her drive past in her lime green Volkswagen Beetle at approximately 6.10 pm, heading toward the Riverside City College on Magnolia Avenue. The friend waved at her, but apparently she failed to notice and did not reciprocate the gesture. A second report from about the same time period was relayed to police from an Air Force man who lived close to Riverside City College library. He was passed by a lime green Volkswagen Beetle driven by a blond female up an alley parallel to Magnolia, east of the Sherri Lynn Apartments. Her vehicle was being followed by a 1965-66 bronze Oldsmobile. This must have been slightly after 6.10 pm, indicating that Cheri Jo Bates was heading to the library to park up.

A Mexican-American student stated that "he knew Cheri Jo Bates and had noticed her in the library the night in question. He said he saw the girl "writing something with a ball point pen" in her blue spiral school notebook. The boy told us he was outside about 5.30 pm, waiting for the library to open at 6, and it was then he saw the girl."

There is one big problem however, pointed out by Ray Grant in 'Zodiac Killer Solved.'
Cheri Jo Bates was spotted by two eyewitnesses (a March Air Force Base man and a friend of Cheri's driving on Magnolia Avenue) that evening, arriving toward Terracina Drive at 6.10-6.15 pm. How could she be arriving at the college at 6.15 pm, when supposedly she was entering the library at 6.00 pm, having earlier arrived at the college library around 5.20 pm. Had she arrived at the college twice, then she must have returned home at some point to search for her bibliography.

The Mexican-American student apparently noticed Cheri Jo Bates "about 5.30 pm." It was likely a few minutes before, because as Ray Grant pointed out, she would eventually notice she wasn't in possession of her bibliography and ventured off to place a payphone call to her co-worker Donna at the Riverside National Bank at 5.30 pm, who said she hadn't seen the bibliography. This call probably lasted for approximately 5 minutes, because the next sighting of Cheri Jo Bates was at 5.40 pm, when she returned back to her vehicle by the library. This eyewitness was not 100% sure of the girl's identity, but there is a high probability it was Cheri Jo Bates, as she was returning to her vehicle, to make the journey back home to retrieve her bibliography. Therefore the payphone was likely 5 minutes walking distance from the library annex.
The police recalled that "It had been determined that Cheri Jo (or a girl resembling her and in similar clothes) had arrived at the library about 5.40 pm and waited for about 20 minutes for the doors to be opened. The girl apparently entered the library as soon as the doors were opened at 6.00 pm, and checked out the books she had come for."

The magazine article stated that apparently she entered the library at 6.00 pm, and had waited 20 minutes from arriving. It is highly likely this is supposition on behalf of the investigators, based upon the 5.40 pm sighting. As Ray Grant suggested, Cheri Jo Bates likely entered her vehicle at 5.40 pm or thereabouts, and drove the 24 minute journey to and from her residence to collect her bibliography. Allowing for the turnaround and locating her bibliography, 30 minutes is a reasonable estimate, placing her arriving back on Terracina Drive at 6.10 pm, where she was spotted by both the March Air Force Base man and her friend

The four men saw Cheri by her vehicle that evening, but if she returned home, then they could have spotted her either the first time she arrived circa 5.15 pm or the second time she arrived, circa 6.10-6.15 pm.

What's crucial however, is how one interprets the Mexican-American student's statement "he knew Cheri Jo Bates and had noticed her in the library the night in question. He said he saw the girl "writing something with a ball point pen" in her blue spiral school notebook." The boy told us he was outside about 5.30 pm, waiting for the library to open at 6, and it was then he saw the girl" Did he see her at 5.30 pm or shortly after the library opened. This phrase can be interpreted two ways. He said HE was outside about 5.30 pm, not actually when he saw Cheri, that could have been once the library opened. Therefore if the eyewitness above who stated they spotted Cheri Jo (or a girl resembling her and in similar clothes) by the library was mistaken, Cheri may have made only one journey to the library and the Mexican-American student saw her around 6.15 pm, shortly after the library opened, "and it was then he saw the girl" once the library had opened.
No names for the four men.
The pathologist F. Rene Modglin stated 'the gastric contents suggest she had eaten a supper type meal probably not more than 2 to 4 hours before death.' In addition the stomach contents contained 'at least 100ml of thick fluid, with particulate food particles in which are easily recognized reasonably large pieces of beef, along with vegetable particulates and/or celery and onion, and what appears to be milk or cottage cheese.'

This doesn't really clear it up for you, because the timeline has so many variables- almost any number of scenarios could have played out.
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Re: Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

Postby Soze » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:58 pm

One of the most significant parts of this case is the reported time of scream; 10:15 to 10:45 pm. Time change was at 2:00 am, some 20 hours before, the scream occurred. Most people turn their clock forward/back the night before (in this case Saturday evening) so that when they wake for work or whatever they start the day with the correct time. So I think based on that alone the likelihood they had the wrong time is slim to none. Remember they are hearing the scream 20 hours after time change. They would have went all day and night with the wrong time and the next day, the day she was discovered, was a Monday. I just don't see it happening.

Another significant point is the 2 to 4 hour time frame of having ate something prior to her death. Assuming scream time is correct, 2 to 4 hours, places her eating between 6:15/6:45 and 8:15/8:45 pm. Frankly I have never liked the idea she ate dinner at 4:30 pm. That's early, way early, for someone going to library to check out books and possibly returning home afterwards.

In addition to this it is stated in the autopsy report that rigor mortis, post mortem lividity and body temperature at 9:23 am on October 31, 1966 indicates Cheri had been dead between 9 and 12 hours. This would place her death occurring between 9:23 pm on the 30th and 12:23 am on the 31st. Going back to the food, which was stated as being as few as 2 hours but probably no more than 4 would place her eating somewhere between 5:30 and 7:30 pm at the earliest time she died and between 8:30 and 10:30 pm at the latest.

The food found in her system consisted of beef, onions/celery and i believe i read someplace that there was also a milk product due to the curds. Beef takes the longest to fully leave the stomach; 3 to 4 hours. Whole milk and/or cheese takes 2 hours. Fruits, vegetables and grain pass through within one hour. For the vegetables this time is based on how the foods break down. Onions and celery don't break down entirely and take longer to pass than most or so i read. This explains how they came up with the two hour part but not the 4 hour part really. She still had beef in her stomach to whatever visual degree. If after 4 hours its gone then the time was likely closer to 3 hours than 4. Well that presents a problem. If the earliest she could have died was 9:23 pm then that places her eating between 6:23 and 7:23 pm. 6:15 and 6:30 pm is the last time the bulk of people saw her at the library. Her car was also disabled. So how did she get the food, where and more importantly, with whom?

Soze
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Re: Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

Postby Dag MacLugh » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:21 pm

The real problem, of course, is that no one who saw Cheri knew she was going to be killed that night. Ergo, they paid no more than casual attention to her and, probably, even less to the time.
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Re: Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

Postby margie » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:59 pm

Dag MacLugh wrote:The real problem, of course, is that no one who saw Cheri knew she was going to be killed that night. Ergo, they paid no more than casual attention to her and, probably, even less to the time.



Well perhaps someone that was interviewed that was a bit more detailed in their description of her would be of more interest then. OR the killer that would know all the details was not interviewed.
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Re: Cheri Jo Bates - Questions

Postby Richard Grinell » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:32 pm

There was a trail of blood drops leading from the alleyway to Terracina Drive. It could have been determined whether these were from the bloodied knife or from the cut hand of a killer. The circumference of the blood drops would have diminished in size if it was from a knife. The circumference of the drops would have either varied in size or remained fairly constant had they been from a fresh cut. Surely they sampled these blood drops.
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