Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo scene

Zodiac stuff that doesn't seem to fit anyplace else

Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby CuriousCat » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:19 am

monarch wrote:
According to what I read on the internet those old wind-up watches would run for 24-36 hours before it needs to be rewound.


That would make the time rather useless then.
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Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby Richard Grinell » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:43 am

The one thing the watch does tell us, is that it was likely ripped from the assailant's wrist early in the attack, as it has never been stated that blood was discovered on any part of the watch. It played no part in the 1999 DNA testing, according to the released documents, which is unusual, as it could potentially have contained residual DNA from the suspect, not only from a standpoint of contact with the victims wrist, but Cheri Jo Bates may have scratched the perpetrator's wrist causing a transfer of blood residue. Cheri Jo Bates had an extremely rare blood group, so distinguishing any transfer using blood typing would not have been difficult.
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Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby Tahoe27 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:42 pm

Richard Grinell wrote:The one thing the watch does tell us, is that it was likely ripped from the assailant's wrist early in the attack, as it has never been stated that blood was discovered on any part of the watch. It played no part in the 1999 DNA testing, according to the released documents, which is unusual, as it could potentially have contained residual DNA from the suspect, not only from a standpoint of contact with the victims wrist, but Cheri Jo Bates may have scratched the perpetrator's wrist causing a transfer of blood residue. Cheri Jo Bates had an extremely rare blood group, so distinguishing any transfer using blood typing would not have been difficult.


They did get DNA off the watch (confirmed to me by Kenneth Mains) in this last round of testing. All he could tell me is that it wasn't Cheri's. Let's just hope the cops used gloves.
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Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby Zresearch » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:08 am

Was there any DNA obtained from the "cigarette butt" mentioned in the papers from the FBI?

Was this cigarette butt conclusively a part of the crime scene? Or might it just happened to have been where the crime was committed?

(The FBI File copies that were sent to me were poor quality and difficult to read, I am having higher quality copies being sent to me, I also have paper copies of the zodiac related put lice and FBI files being mailed to me, but until then I have to work with what I have)
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Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby Richard Grinell » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:26 am

Supposedly, there was a female walking through the alleyway at 9.30 pm, where she spotted a male smoking a cigarette. Being approximately one hour before the screams and possible murder, they obviously would have taken any cigarette butt as valuable evidence, hence it was retrieved. In 1999 it was tested for DNA and yielded a concentration of 0.003 nanograms per microliter. If this female eyewitness was accurate, then this sighting was the last before screams were heard coming from the alleyway, and therefore a credible person of interest in the murder of Cheri Jo Bates. The question is, could forensics separate the sample from the hair at the base of the victim's right thumb, from DNA retrieved from the cigarette butt.
Whether the cigarette butt originated from the male observed is another matter, but there must have been priority given to any cigarette butt's near the crime scene, that looked fresh, and still possibly harbored certain quantities of salivary amylase, which is also useful regarding secretors and non-secretors.
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Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby Zresearch » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:16 am

Richard Grinell wrote:Supposedly, there was a female walking through the alleyway at 9.30 pm, where she spotted a male smoking a cigarette. Being approximately one hour before the screams and possible murder, they obviously would have taken any cigarette butt as valuable evidence, hence it was retrieved. In 1999 it was tested for DNA and yielded a concentration of 0.003 nanograms per microliter. If this female eyewitness was accurate, then this sighting was the last before screams were heard coming from the alleyway, and therefore a credible person of interest in the murder of Cheri Jo Bates. The question is, could forensics separate the sample from the hair at the base of the victim's right thumb, from DNA retrieved from the cigarette butt.
Whether the cigarette butt originated from the male observed is another matter, but there must have been priority given to any cigarette butt's near the crime scene, that looked fresh, and still possibly harbored certain quantities of salivary amylase, which is also useful regarding secretors and non-secretors.


Great response, this is exactly the information I was seeking when I asked my question, your response was very helpful and much appreciated.

You figure bates' murderer might have had to wait around after he disabled the car, and if the killer was a smoker it is entirely possible that while waiting for his victim he smoked a cigarette. Definitely has the potential to be a highly valuable piece of evidence, though I personally think that the "four brown Caucasian head hairs" are still the best evidence.

I'll do my best to keep up on this topic, thanks for your response.
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Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby Richard Grinell » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:52 am

If Cheri Jo Bates entered the library around opening time, then left shortly after, we obviously have 4 hours to explain.
This man in the alleyway had reasonable vantage point (depending on Terracina Drive streetlights) to view the Volkswagen Beetle parked 75 yards east of the alleyway, just past the library entrance. If Cheri Jo Bates had left the library, say 6.15, and gone elsewhere on foot, leaving her vehicle, then this man in the alleyway (who may have disabled her vehicle) and may have been stalking or targeting her, could likely be under the impression that Cheri Jo Bates was in the library and was due to leave upon closing at 9.00 pm. She however, unknown to him, had gone elsewhere. But he likely knew she had to return sometime to her vehicle. This scenario, however, would indicate a level of persistence on his part, having to have waited upwards of 90 minutes in the area. It's a possibility, but there are many alternatives in this extremely puzzling case. This is assuming the screams are connected to the murder at a presumed 10.30 pm or thereabouts.
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Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby Dag MacLugh » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:35 am

There was a time change on or about the 30th. This change and, additionally, the screams no doubt added confusion to the time estimate. Incidentally, I've never understood why those who heard such "terrible" screams didn't immediately report them to the police. Good, upstanding citizens, huh?
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Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby Richard Grinell » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:02 pm

The selfishness of humankind is one possibility. Another, is they mistook the scream for revelers. Today is very different- many eyewitnesses to a crime just start filming it with their smartphone and post it on Youtube for a thumbs up- pathetic really.
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Re: Misc. Question regarding the watch from the Cheri jo sce

Postby Zresearch » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 am

Richard Grinell wrote:If Cheri Jo Bates entered the library around opening time, then left shortly after, we obviously have 4 hours to explain.
This man in the alleyway had reasonable vantage point (depending on Terracina Drive streetlights) to view the Volkswagen Beetle parked 75 yards east of the alleyway, just past the library entrance. If Cheri Jo Bates had left the library, say 6.15, and gone elsewhere on foot, leaving her vehicle, then this man in the alleyway (who may have disabled her vehicle) and may have been stalking or targeting her, could likely be under the impression that Cheri Jo Bates was in the library and was due to leave upon closing at 9.00 pm. She however, unknown to him, had gone elsewhere. But he likely knew she had to return sometime to her vehicle. This scenario, however, would indicate a level of persistence on his part, having to have waited upwards of 90 minutes in the area. It's a possibility, but there are many alternatives in this extremely puzzling case. This is assuming the screams are connected to the murder at a presumed 10.30 pm or thereabouts.


Again, great response.

The level of persistence required in targeting this victim in the manner which you described is not unreasonable in my mind.

I feel that disabling Cheri Jo's vehicle was an indication that the killer knew his target, he knew her car, and had likely planned to kill her when she left the library, which makes a scenario in which the killer waited for his victim seem reasonable.

I wish I knew the Cheri jo case better, blue rock springs has taken up a good deal of my focus.

If Mike from the blue rock springs attack was accurately describing events it is possible that Darlene ferrin was followed and stalked prior to her murder, and if we assume that dea and cheri jo had the same killer then this stalking scenario becomes all the more plausible and may even indicate a modus operandi on the part of the killer.

Again, great response, I wish I was better versed in the Cheri jo case. Your responses have been very informative and quite helpful, much thanks.
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