Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby EndOfTheWorld » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:24 am

I'm not saying he didn't write the letter. Yes, he liked to mess with the press and police---he was not always truthful. The four confirmed attacks were proven by him. He said things only the killer would know. At least, that's my understanding---I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all his letters, attacks, phone calls, etc. As you yourself point out, the Johns and CJB incidents were irregular compared to his confirmed attacks.
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Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby Pettibon Junction » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:41 am

Quicktrader wrote:Of course you can say 'Kathleen Johns is a liar and both letters are fake', but then there is no serial killer at all. Mageau said he is dark blond, Hartnell said he is brown haired with curly hair. Fouke saw a crew-cut guy. Others mentioned a pompadour hairstyle. And yes, he wore glasses. But not in BRS. Well.QT


Eyewitness testimony is notoriously fallible and if you look at composite drawings generated in response to witness descriptions in virtually any serial killer case, you'll find at least one or two that are radically different from what the suspect actually looked like after he was caught. A prime example of this is the Son of Sam, who seemingly shape-shifted from one eyewitness account to the next - a detail many still use to gin up farfetched stories of accomplices and cult involvement. (Sound familiar?) Similarly, black serial killers Derrick Todd Lee and John Allen Muhammad were originally described to police as white men, with faulty composite drawings being generated in each case before the eventual suspects were identified and later convicted using airtight forensic evidence.

The straw-man argument that Zodiac witnesses described such disparate perpetrators as to disprove the classification of these crimes as serial murder is, frankly, ridiculous. There are far more similarities than differences.
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Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby Quicktrader » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:53 am

Pettibon Junction wrote:
Quicktrader wrote:Of course you can say 'Kathleen Johns is a liar and both letters are fake', but then there is no serial killer at all. Mageau said he is dark blond, Hartnell said he is brown haired with curly hair. Fouke saw a crew-cut guy. Others mentioned a pompadour hairstyle. And yes, he wore glasses. But not in BRS. Well.QT


Eyewitness testimony is notoriously fallible and if you look at composite drawings generated in response to witness descriptions in virtually any serial killer case, you'll find at least one or two that are radically different from what the suspect actually looked like after he was caught. A prime example of this is the Son of Sam, who seemingly shape-shifted from one eyewitness account to the next - a detail many still use to gin up farfetched stories of accomplices and cult involvement. (Sound familiar?) Similarly, black serial killers Derrick Todd Lee and John Allen Muhammad were originally described to police as white men, with faulty composite drawings being generated in each case before the eventual suspects were identified and later convicted using airtight forensic evidence.

The straw-man argument that Zodiac witnesses described such disparate perpetrators as to disprove the classification of these crimes as serial murder is, frankly, ridiculous. There are far more similarities than differences.


True, but he did mention the woman+baby incident a few months earlier. Don't know if there has been another similar incident? He could have known about it from the news..but could he know about the car being put on fire, too? This, in combination with Kathleen John's reaction, makes me personally believe that she had a ride with Z. Same with his mentioning of Riverside, he takes credit on that one and even pays the 'blue meannies' some respect. Anyway, what do you think are the similarities? Like hard facts, someone could pin him on a certain MO? Lover's lanes, ok, but even that is not valid for all of his victims. Then there is the committing crimes on the weekend, nothing special either. I'm just curious if there are any other similarities..or why there are simply no such similarities at all. All of his victims have been white. Zebra killings, for example, in the first wave only once a machete was used but all other victims had been shoot with 2-4 shots. Something like that, imo, is missing with Z.

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Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby Pettibon Junction » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:11 am

Quicktrader wrote:True, but he did mention the woman+baby incident a few months earlier. Don't know if there has been another similar incident? He could have known about it from the news..but could he know about the car being put on fire, too? This, in combination with Kathleen John's reaction, makes me personally believe that she had a ride with Z. Same with his mentioning of Riverside, he takes credit on that one and even pays the 'blue meannies' some respect. Anyway, what do you think are the similarities? Like hard facts, someone could pin him on a certain MO? Lover's lanes, ok, but even that is not valid for all of his victims. Then there is the committing crimes on the weekend, nothing special either. I'm just curious if there are any other similarities..or why there are simply no such similarities at all. All of his victims have been white. Zebra killings, for example, in the first wave only once a machete was used but all other victims had been shoot with 2-4 shots. Something like that, imo, is missing with Z.

QT


QT, I was mostly referring to the notion (which isn't yours, really) that since witnesses described slightly different-looking guys at the crime scenes, then there must have either been a conspiracy of sorts or the murders were not all related.

As far as the crimes go, the canonical four are linked by signature. Signature is an intangible thing and often difficult to pin down but it's defined by Robert Keppel in his work 'Signature Killers' (which, by the way, sells for cheap in paperback and belongs in any amateur sleuth's library) as what a killer does that has nothing to do with the commission of the crime but is key to his enjoyment of it. Essentially, it boils down to asking what a murderer "gets" out of killing and then finding the answer in the scenes.

In the Zodiac case, the obvious answer would be the phone calls and letters, the taunting of authority but that's only one component of it. I've said this before the Zodiac's primary motive is CONQUEST. It's not enough for him to be a Joel Rifkin or a Bill Suff, picking up "easy" victims from the local flesh markets and having his way with them. He starts off going for YOUNG COUPLES. There is no sexual assault or prolonged physical contact with the victims. The murders themselves are perfunctory and performed execution style but they punctuate the point he's trying to make. People often assume the bulk of Z's contempt is for the female victims but I don't necessarily believe that. My gut instinct is that despite being an absolute failure with women, the bulk of Zodiac's early traumas in life were meted out by males and so, having men there at the scenes of these crimes is incredibly important to him. In slaying a male, he takes his place, thus "winning" possession of a young, vivacious, attractive woman, the likes of which he's probably always felt entitled to but shut out from by perceived gatekeepers, but he's also neutralizing a threat he's suffered under his whole life. That's not insignificant and, I would argue, speaks to signature.

Ultimately, Zodiac has to escalate his activities and broaden the scope of what, exactly, he deserves. His wishlist is growing and he deviates from his pattern to hit an "easy" victim. The murder of Paul Stine was a shot across the bow and tipped Z's hand to reveal a grander design. It's also in keeping with the risk-taking pattern of behavior evidenced by his earlier crimes and the danger of sauntering away from the crime scene after being seen by numerous witnesses may have dampened the thrill even for him. But no matter. At this point, the letter writing campaign ramps up to fever proportions and the more esoteric and bizarre the communications become.

They also tell us exactly what his motive was: not fantasies of sadism, as many interpreted his "slaves in paradice" communique to mean, but those of conquest, of punishment, of the righteous despotism of a man who would be king. There are solid arguments in favor of the Bates' murder being the work of either Z or a guy very much like him (the "Confession" letter being especially damning) and so I remain necessarily agnostic there, but I'm having a difficult seeing Kathleen Johns falling victim to the Zodiac, mostly because I have a hard time getting a straight answer as to what the hell actually happened to her given how radically her story changed with each telling.

All this is probably a bit off-topic and redundant but I hope it helps.
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Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby Tahoe27 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:24 pm

Quicktrader wrote: He could have known about it from the news..but could he know about the car being put on fire, too?
QT


QT--You need to read the article in the link. He knew.

Thought you knew this stuff. :)

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/6 ... paj0PkrK71
Image

"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby EndOfTheWorld » Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:23 pm

There are some things his confirmed attacks (4 in number) have in common. The first three he attacked young couples in intimate situations (ie. making out). The first two he shot bullets---it was night-time out in the country and he hoped no one would hear. (Apparently no one did.) At Lake Berryessa it's possible he used a knife because it was still daylight and he didn't want to risk the noise of gunshots. He started his media circus and by the time the Paul Stine murder rolled around he wasn't concerned about finding young lovers any more----now he had found his true calling----master media manipulator. After the Stine murder he retreated into just the media circus, then I believe he found a less risky form of murder as the Unabomber---until his brother, or his sister-in-law, ratted him out.
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Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby Quicktrader » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:21 am

EndOfTheWorld wrote:There are some things his confirmed attacks (4 in number) have in common. The first three he attacked young couples in intimate situations (ie. making out). The first two he shot bullets---it was night-time out in the country and he hoped no one would hear. (Apparently no one did.) At Lake Berryessa it's possible he used a knife because it was still daylight and he didn't want to risk the noise of gunshots. He started his media circus and by the time the Paul Stine murder rolled around he wasn't concerned about finding young lovers any more----now he had found his true calling----master media manipulator. After the Stine murder he retreated into just the media circus, then I believe he found a less risky form of murder as the Unabomber---until his brother, or his sister-in-law, ratted him out.


I'd love to see a + written by Ted Kaczynski..hair, widows peak and handwriting are definitely some sort of match. He was in Berkeley, too. Not sure if he had worn heavy-rimmed glasses (pic below a modification?). However he was not stocky at all. He also had no round face at all. Both of it makes me believe he was not Z. Any ties to Riverside? Or something else, besides the handwriting and the fact that he had produced bombs? In my opinion the way how slim Ted actually looks like on the picture below sort of rules him out..but the theory is ok, because the handwriting is really similar.

Another idea against the Ted Kaczynski theory...wouldn't Mike Mageau recognized him from e.g. the media if he had been his attacker?

Ted.jpg


ted_ka21.jpg


https://books.google.at/books?id=maiGcs ... ky&f=false
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Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby Pettibon Junction » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:22 am

Quicktrader wrote: However he was not stocky at all. He also had no round face at all. Both of it makes me believe he was not Z.


That the FBI investigated the possibility of a Zodiac link after Kacynski's arrest and ruled him it almost immediately makes me believe he was not Z.
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Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby EndOfTheWorld » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:14 am

Who told you that? That the FBI investigated Kazcinski and "ruled him out"?
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Re: Irregularity of Z's behaviour

Postby Pettibon Junction » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:27 am

EndOfTheWorld wrote:Who told you that? That the FBI investigated Kazcinski and "ruled him out"?


"Unfortunately for proponents of this theory, Kacynski has been cleared of involvement in the Zodiac murders by both the FBI and the San Francisco Police Department. According to official reports, Kacnynski was exonerated of the murders by fingerprint and handwriting comparison, and by proof of his absence from California on five specific dates of known Zodiac activity."
The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, Second Edition
by Michael Newton
p. 304

"There are just two problems with the sudden optimism of those who see Kaczynski as Zodiac.
First, the FBI isn't planning to use his DNA for that case.
"No, we are only interested in the Tylenol murders," FBI Special Agent Ross Rice told me over the weekend -- verifying for the first time that there is no wider investigative plan. "If we do get a DNA sample from him, that is what it will be used for."
Second problem with the Second problem with the UNAZOD theory: Zodiac fingerprint evidence and expert handwriting analysis ruled out Kaczynski years ago, along with travel records that place Kaczynski away from California on several of the key crime dates.
There is nothing publicly stated that makes the FBI believe Ted Kaczynski actually is the Tylenol killer."
'Tylenol isn't only case in which Unabomber is suspected'
by Chuck Goudie
Chicago Daily Herald, March 22, 2011
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