Why Stop With Stine?

Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby Tahoe27 » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:01 pm

Nachtsider wrote:Something happened to change him, and it wasn't the fear of getting caught.

I maintain that whatever demons drove him to kill got exorcised.


Great to see you back Nachtsider!

I think that is a fair statement.
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby BugsMoran » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:25 am

If there was actually a Team Zodiac I think the primary Zodiac was behind all the attacks up until and including Berryessa. The knifing of two people was too gory for even him and he decided to call it quits while he was ahead.

The secondary Zodiac, who wrote the letters and made the telephone calls, decided to step up his game and to do the killing himself. The execution-style murder of Paul Stine would have been gruesome enough to take the glamour out of murder. The fact that there were eye witnesses and that he was spotted by a patrol also took the fun out of it for him.

By 1971 even the letter writing wasn't enough so he retired flat out. The 1974 letters were to test the waters and, perhaps, to lure the primary Zodiac out of retirement.
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Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby Dag MacLugh » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:33 pm

I've suspected Z had a wife or significant other who stomped on his brakes after the Stine episode because the arrest of Z would reveal the significant other as an accomplice. Z agreed, and gradually "sobered up" by conducting his terminal letter campaign.
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Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby Nachtsider » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:33 am

Dag MacLugh wrote:I've suspected Z had a wife or significant other who stomped on his brakes after the Stine episode because the arrest of Z would reveal the significant other as an accomplice. Z agreed, and gradually "sobered up" by conducting his terminal letter campaign.

Suddenly I feel like rewatching 'The Grand Inquisitor'.
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Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby Soze » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:27 am

Well it would seem that the Zodiac ultimately found "getting his rocks off with a girl" more pleasurable than murder. Hmmm. Whodathunkit.

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Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby Dag MacLugh » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:53 pm

Soze: May I elaborate? Could be Z had difficulty, sexually and/or emotionally in dealing with females, beginning in high school. This may have carried on into a profound relationship, perhaps even marriage. Z-to-be encountered Bates in the library at RCC, and his resentment toward her for her shining him on at Ramona High fused with his relationship problems with his girlfriend/wife, and he went on to kill Bates. His murder of Bates gave Z-to-be a rush of power vis-a-vis females, and allowed him to conduct what he felt was a true male-female relationship. In time, however, the rush dissipated, and he killed again. Note, too, the territorial/age progression: from Riverside to San Francisco, and from high school (here I include Bates) to college students.
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Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby Soze » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:18 pm

Dawg, I was just funning around so to speak and my comment wasn't towards anything you have said. I am with you on the Zodiac having some sort of sexual/relationship issues. I am not one, however, who believes these issues have any weight to his reasons for killing. Sadly, I also don't see a wife co-conspirator. I do think about a wife at times, wondering how much she might have "suspected" and, wondering about her mental welfare should he ever be revealed.

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Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby DoctorS » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:18 pm

I can't see Zodiac as the settling down with a wife and kids type. I believe there would be too many clues in his behavior and words and I think he was too dysfunctional to have a long term relationship. What happened after Stine in part of the lure of the case, isn't it? The murders began occurring closer and closer together and then nothing concrete after Stine. I do believe he knew CJB, even in an oblique way. I am thinking more of a nuisance here. He stares at her. The guy she would roll her eyes at and maybe mention to her friends that he creeps her out. Maybe he sees her in the library or on campus and makes an advance or tries to strike up a conversation with her and gets rebuffed. Then in a fit of rage he kills her. It's almost an impulsive act, as his lack of planning beforehand shows. That, in my opinion, explains the gap between CJB and LHR. He was waiting for the heat to get off him in Riverside. He messed up there. That may explain why he moved to the Bay Area if his original home was in SOCAL.

So he rages out against young students; he's probably close to their age and can identify with them. He is lonely himself and envies couples who can have relationships. Then there is Stine. Yes, he's a student but an adult one. Doesn't fit. As they say in Fincher's movie, he's breaking the pattern. Why? I do think he initially stopped because the cops almost got him. They were very close to catching him.

But we know serial killers don't stop killing. They may go dormant for a while but it's always there under the surface waiting to re-emerge. I tend to discount the huge list of potential/suspected victims in the back of Graysmith's Zodiac. Some cases have been solved, others were definitely the work of a serial killer but I don't think it was Z. Oddly enough, I did count weekend murders from the list up to the date of the Exorcist letter where he claimed 37 victims and came up with 36 potential victims.

Could have been institutionalized or incarcerated but I can't see him getting caught for another crime. Personally I think it was a physical infirmity or health issue. But even that doesn't necessarily add up if he was a younger killer. So I just shot my own theory down. Long story short, I tend to think he stopped after Stine but I can't figure out why.
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Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby DoctorS » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:17 pm

Ok, so my caveat is I don't buy into this theory that I am tossing around but since we deal in speculation, consider this remote (unlikely) possibility: if Zodiac knew Darlene and wanted to kill her, he goes around and kills some other people to make her slaying appear random when in fact she was the target. John Allen Muhammad's wife alleged that she was his true target and all the other victims of the DV Sniper's were just a cover-up for the true motive. I'm not sure I buy that one, either. Both seemed to kill for the joy of killing. But it might explain why the murders suddenly stopped. Kill Darlene, throw in a couple other random folks, mission accomplished.
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Re: Why Stop With Stine?

Postby Dag MacLugh » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:40 pm

Doc: But, why provoke the cops by sneering at their Stine-killer search? That's a helluva way to cool things off!
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