Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby Jarlve » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:11 pm

smokie treats wrote:And here is the epic fail. The homophonic encoding with cycles, at about 25% random symbol selection, actually created a lot more symbols that were unique to the top / bottom and middle. The Caesar symbols that were unique to the top / bottom or middle are guaranteed to be represented here, but because of the homophones, there were a lot more.

Hey smokie,

Are you saying that a caesar shift by thirds generally overshoots the observation in the 340? What about just homophonic substitution?

The by thirds pattern (top/middle/bottom) in the 340 is a tricky interpretation I think. It is a distribution and other distributions could be equally significant. Unless, you consider the observation that it was derived from, the high unigram distance, in what seems to result in unusually large gaps between symbols. That said, I would not look at it as a distribution like thirds or 6-8-6, but rather as the distance between symbols. Your cipher has a unigram distance of 13227 while the 340 sits at 15034.
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Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby smokie treats » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:13 pm

Jarlve wrote:
smokie treats wrote:And here is the epic fail. The homophonic encoding with cycles, at about 25% random symbol selection, actually created a lot more symbols that were unique to the top / bottom and middle. The Caesar symbols that were unique to the top / bottom or middle are guaranteed to be represented here, but because of the homophones, there were a lot more.

Hey smokie,

Are you saying that a caesar shift by thirds generally overshoots the observation in the 340? What about just homophonic substitution?

The by thirds pattern (top/middle/bottom) in the 340 is a tricky interpretation I think. It is a distribution and other distributions could be equally significant. Unless, you consider the observation that it was derived from, the high unigram distance, in what seems to result in unusually large gaps between symbols. That said, I would not look at it as a distribution like thirds or 6-8-6, but rather as the distance between symbols. Your cipher has a unigram distance of 13227 while the 340 sits at 15034.


I just picked 6-8-6 because that is what it looks like, but if I had been correct with my idea, then it wouldn't necessarily have to be exactly 6-8-6. It was difficult to make transposition + Caesar + homophonic all co-exist. It was not too difficult to make it so that a lot of symbols only appeared in the 6-6, while only a few symbols appeared in the 8 with transposition + Caesar. But I was not able to make that happen with transposition + Caesar + homophonic.

I think that shifting the homophonic would be exactly the same as Caesar shift + homophonic. The Caesar shift basically shifts the homophonic key. Same thing I think. But one important takeaway for me is that he probably did not change his key throughout the message. It was difficult for me to do it and make the P 20 repeats.
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Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby doranchak » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:37 pm

Largo, I adapted your wonderful fonts and combined them into a single font, and made each symbol a constant width, making it easier to display cipher texts in a grid format. I also drew in the missing symbols from Z13 and Z32, and moved the symbols around to match the webtoy transcription.

Here is a sample of what the ciphers look like in this font:

Image

Click here for a live version: http://zodiackillerciphers.com/combined ... phers.html
And download the TTF font file here: http://zodiackillerciphers.com/combined ... ebfont.ttf
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Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby traveller1st » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:45 pm

Damn good show old chap(s). :D
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"I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb."
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Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby smokie treats » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:03 am

This is so awesome. Thank you so much!

340 P19 Largo Font.Untitled.png
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Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby smokie treats » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:18 am

For some reason I can't get to the link that shows Moonrock's different cycle types.

So what about this kind of cycle to explain things. Maybe he just used a pattern and if we can find it...

A B C D E

B C D E

C D E

D E

E

A B C D E

B C D E

C D E

D E

E

That would make some symbols get closer and closer together, but also some symbols farther and farther apart.

Or like this.

A

A B

A B C

A B C D

A B C D E

A

A B

A B C

A B C D

A B C D E

That would make symbols get farther and farther apart.
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Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby Largo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:17 am

I am glad that you like the font and that you have a use for it.

doranchak wrote:Largo, I adapted your wonderful fonts and combined them into a single font, and made each symbol a constant width, making it easier to display cipher texts in a grid format. I also drew in the missing symbols from Z13 and Z32, and moved the symbols around to match the webtoy transcription.


Thank you for making it a monospaced font, I've wanted to do that for a long time. I also like your idea to put all symbols in one font. Thank you for putting the font on your webpage!
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Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby doranchak » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:30 am

smokie treats wrote:For some reason I can't get to the link that shows Moonrock's different cycle types.

For some reason, he removed his posts. I wonder why. But here's a reply from Jarlve that quotes Moonrock's cycle types:
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop ... 762#p50762
smokie treats wrote:So what about this kind of cycle to explain things. Maybe he just used a pattern and if we can find it...

Interesting idea. In the first example, "DE" would still happen 4 times in a row ("AB" 4 times in the 2nd example) and so can still be detected by a L=4 search. But it could explain why higher-order cycles are not as easily found. Should be worth investigating.
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Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby smokie treats » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:45 am

Yeah the font is really fantastic. The numbers as symbols throws people off I think and if I want to make a point about the 340 I think sometimes it diminishes that.

Moonrock wrote this:

1. The perfect cycle, which has substitutions arranged in an unchanging pattern throughout the entire cipher: 12345 - 12345 - 12345 - 12345.
2. The increasingly random cycle, which has substitutions start off in an organized cycle and gradually become random: 12345 - 12345 - 12435 - 24153.
3. The decreasingly random cycle, which is the opposite of the increasingly random cycle: 24153 - 12435 - 12345 - 12345.
4. The random cycle, which has the substitutions arranged in random order: 32415 - 12543 - 41352 - 53124.
5. The concurrent cycle, which has two separate cycles existing at the same time for a single substitution; 1 and 5 cycling, and 2, 3, and 4 cycling in the following example: 12345 - 21354 - 23154 - 23415.
6. The palindromic cycle, which has the substitutions arranged in an order that reads the same forward and backward: 11211 - 11211 - 11211, 12321 - 12321 - 12321, and 123454321.
7. The inverted cycle, which has a uniform cycle inverted to be the opposite of what it was beyond a certain point: 12345 - 12345 - 54321 - 54321, and 11211 - 11211 - 22122 - 22122. The former example is an example of a perfect cycle being inverted, which creates a palindrome, and the latter example is of a palindromic cycle being inverted.
8. The shortened cycle, which has a cycle decrease in length as the ciphertext progresses: 12345 - 12345 - 1234 - 1234 - 123 - 123.
9. The lengthened cycle, which is the opposite of the shortened cycle: 123 - 123 - 1234 - 1234 - 12345 - 12345.

10. The regional cycle, which restricts substitutions to or from specific regions, or areas, of the ciphertext; this restriction typically manifests as either a restriction to specific rows or to specific columns, and, if used exclusively, is the equivalent of a series of simple substitutions.
11. The semi-regional cycle, which has the frequency of substitutions fluctuate between different regions, or areas, of the ciphertext in a similar way to regional cycling. When regional and semi-regional cycles are combined, it increases their level of security. Both regional and semi-regional cycles are capable of being accompanied by non-regional assignment of substitutions.
12. The sequential cycle, which is when one type of cycle is followed by another type of cycle: 12345 - 12345 - 123454321 - 1234321 - 12321; in this example, a perfect cycle changes to a palindromic cycle, which is then shortened.

I thought about the shortened cycle and lengthened cycle when lying awake in the dark last night. I will consider exploring that. The 340 does have cycling in it, but maybe this is the answer to why there aren't long cycles.

Jarlve, what do you think?
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Re: Route Transposition and Phenomenon

Postby doranchak » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:32 am

Smokie, your grid looks great with Largo's font! I have a similar cipher-highlighting tool that I want to use with the new font. I love that the font works at any resolution, has a nice transparent background, and can be made any color.

Largo wrote:Thank you for making it a monospaced font, I've wanted to do that for a long time. I also like your idea to put all symbols in one font. Thank you for putting the font on your webpage!


You're welcome. Let me know if you spot any problems with it. I tried to be careful to not miss any symbols and to map to the actual cipher texts properly. There may be some lingering warnings/errors in the TTF file; I am not sure if they will cause any noticeable problems.
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