The Watch

The Watch

Postby YourSecretPal » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:14 pm

Ok, I wanted to start a new thread on the watch found at the scene, the ones I read got off-course

What do we know? (help me out if I miss something or am wrong)

It's a Men's Timex Marlin, Handwind
possibly an older model (could it be from the 50's?) - worn leather band, (adjusted to size 7?)
it was running when found, so most likely from the murder, not just lost by a random worker previously.
it has some paint on the band (so was possibly the same watch stolen from Johnny Ray Swindle in 1964)

It was tracked back to England and possibly a military base??? by who? how? what part of England? which base?

(just realized I can place my suspect and his family in England, If I can prove during the same time, that'd be huge.)

Who knows a lot about this?
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Re: The Watch

Postby Richard Grinell » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:03 am

Each Timex watch made after 1963 has numbers inprinted on the dial which denote the catalog number, movement number and year of manufacture. These numbers are printed on the face of the dial and is usually visible. In some instances, it will not be visible until the movement is taken from the case. Watches made before 1963 are much harder to date. Sometimes the inside of the caseback will still have the original rubber stamp - the last two numbers represent the year of manufacture.

Watches manufactured between 1963 and 1970:

1. The last two numbers represent the year of manufacture.

2. The two numbers immediately preceeding the year of manufacture to the left represent the movement model number.

3. The first four digits represent the Timex sales catalog number with the last digit omitted.

This what it states on Tom Voigt's site "The origin of the watch was eventually traced to a military post, possibly in England." However, if it was traced to a military post, why would the country be in doubt.
In Zodiac Unmasked Graysmith states "The Timex had been purchased at a military base exchange."
Inside Detective Magazine stated "It was determined that the watch had been sold in an Armed Forces PX at an overseas military base."
An exchange is a type of retail store found on United States military installations worldwide. Originally akin to trading posts, they now resemble contemporary department stores or strip malls.
Base Exchanges sell consumer goods and services to authorized patrons such as Active Duty, Reserve, National Guard, Retired Members of the U.S. Uniformed Services and their dependents. Other authorized patrons include Honorably Discharged Veterans certified 100% disabled and/or Totally and Permanently Disabled (TPD) by the Veterans Administration, Recipients of the Medal of Honor, Military Transition Personnel[clarification needed], DoD Employees when stationed outside the United States, Red Cross Personnel who are U.S. citizens assigned outside the United States with the Military Service. Authority to use these facilities is normally determined by presentation of the U.S. Uniformed Services Privilege and Identification Card, either when entering the store or when paying for goods and services. Wiki.

By the mid 1960s the Timex facilities in Dundee were massive — 240,000 square feet at Milton of Craigie, 190,000 square feet at Dunsinane Avenue and the flagship factory at Harrison Road was the UK’s largest supplier of watches. This was in Scotland. ... times-hit/

Michael Cole wrote a good article on the Swindle connection. But whether the two watches are connected is anyone's
guess. Sorry, can't find anything more relevant to your search. ... onnection/ ... 487/g.html
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Re: The Watch

Postby Dag MacLugh » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:02 pm

While interesting, the origin of the Timex watch is not definitive. After purchase, it could have been sold, stolen, lost or given away. I was told by a Bates case investigator that RPD's suspect had earlier been painting a small building on his parents' property in which he lived. Anyone know if RPD matched the paint on the watchband with the paint on the suspect's living quarters?
Cheri's time of death has, to me, always been questionable. If the watch were still running when confiscated by police the time registered at confiscation would be useless. Only if it were stopped, as if by a blow at the time of the murder, would the time be significant. Further, the night of October 30, 1966 is particularly significant, as the date time changed back an hour which adds an element of uncertainty to witnesses' recollection of the time they heard Cheri's blood-curdling screams.
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Re: The Watch

Postby Theforeigner » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:39 pm

Here is an exact copy of the Timex watch found at the Bates crime scene: ... 0012.m1985

There are more photos of the watch in the link.

Item specifics
Condition: Pre-owned :
Seller Notes: “This 1963 Timex Waterproof Mechanical Manual Wind 33mm Mens Watch Is In Good Cosmetic Condition. The watch runs a bit when shook but has a broken stem and missing crown making winding/time setting impossible. It could probably use a service as well due to its age. The crystal has a bunch of very minor scratches. The face is in great shape. A goldish tinge radial brush dial. See the pictures for full condition/color details. The watch measures 33mm case diameter (without crown) x 40mm lug to lug and has a 17.5mm lug width. The date code seems to indicate 1963. Please ask with any questions or for further details and thanks for looking!”
Gender: Men's Brand:
Watch Shape: Round Case Size: 33mm
Case Color: Chrome Lug Width: 17.5mm
Movement: Mechanical (Hand-winding) Style: Casual
Water Resistance Rating: Not Water Resistant Year of Manufacture: 1960-1969
Features: 12-Hour Dial, Acrylic Crystal, Arabic Numerals Age Group: Adult
Case Finish: Polished Country/Region of Manufacture: United States
Does Not Apply
Case Material: Plated Base Metal
Display: Analog

Some years ago I bought an exact copy and I posted pictures and detailed info on that watch (might have been on the old forum), but I have the photos and info on a computer that is not accessible right now, so maybe some members here know where to find the photos and info I used to post?
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Re: The Watch

Postby Mr lowe » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:12 pm

just wondering if the hair and (skin)? found under Cheris finger nail was from her attackers arm as she ripped the watch off.
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Re: The Watch

Postby Pettibon Junction » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:08 am

Mr lowe wrote:just wondering if the hair and (skin)? found under Cheris finger nail was from her attackers arm as she ripped the watch off.

I'm not sure whether that can be determined, but it would seem to make sense.
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Re: The Watch

Postby Quicktrader » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:59 am

I wonder if Z had bought the watch via mail order, e.g. after reading some ad in the newspaper?

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Re: The Watch

Postby sandy betts » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:43 pm

Mr lowe wrote:just wondering if the hair and (skin)? found under Cheris finger nail was from her attackers arm as she ripped the watch off.

It was my understanding that the hair found was a from a facial hair, like perhaps a beard or mustache? That made me think about the couple missing from the RCC reenactment , the guy had a beard.

The wrist watch was still working when found as you can tell by when it found and the later pictures with a different time.

Thank you Richard for the information you gave about how to know when a watch was manufactured etc. A girls Timex watch was left with the costume that was put in my car in Napa Sept 28th or 29th 1969.

Neither Napa or Riverside will answer my question if either victim was missing a wrist watch? I even went as far as to ask Bryan Hartnell if he remembered if Cecelia had one on that day?
I didn't see one listed in evidence, most students wore watches.
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Re: The Watch

Postby Quicktrader » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:24 am

Do we know cjb's timex number?

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Re: The Watch

Postby sandy betts » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:18 pm

Quicktrader wrote:Do we know cjb's timex number?


We don't know for sure if CJB had a watch or if hers was missing or not? I can't get a answer from RPD. I was hoping that her brother Michael would show up to the meeting we had at RCC last Oct. So I could show him the Catholic prayer book that was planted in my car and the watch to see if he recognized either of them?
My guess would be that the tiny book could belong to CJB and the watch probably belonged to Cecelia, being the costume and other things were put there to tie to that crime.

The watch I have has"stainless steel" written on the back of it and only "Timex" on the front. I have never taken the back off to see the numbers.I think that Law enforcement should be the ones to do that. I keep it in a safety deposit box along with the dictionary with blood on it. There are very tiny specks of what looks like blood on the gray leather watch band. You would think that Napa would want to test it to see of it is a match to Cecelia's blood type which was RH neg. I realize that what was put in my car that day and what I still have , sounds too good to be true , but forensics do not lie !
I haven't looked at my thread lately ,to see if all of the pictures that Zam put on that thread for all of you to see are still there or not? If they are, you can blow up the picture of the watch band and see the specks of what looks like blood.
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