TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Discussion of Zodiac Victim Paul Stine

TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby Richard Grinell » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:17 am

IF we believe this statement by the Robbins kids, then two men or two Zodiac's were present on Jackson Street.
"Not many know this, but Lindsey (being 16. feeling immortal, and believing the suspect to be armed with only a knife) ran out of his door to see where Zodiac was going. He ran to the corner of Cherry and watched as Zodiac continued his casual pace right up to the corner of Jackson & Cherry.
At this exact point, the first SFPD car arrives with two officers. One, Pelissetti, approached Lindsey and tried to extract what was happening. The other officer went to the cab and found the bloody victim. While Pelissetti was asking questions, Lindsey was trying to explain that the suspect was in sight on Cherry St. By the time Pelissetti got the point, they both looked and the Zodiac was gone."

Here is a map of the timeline.
Image

1. Donald Fouke received the initial dispatch at 9.58 pm. Armond Pelissetti received the initial dispatch at 9.58 pm.
2. Cherry takes 1 minute to walk, then 2 minutes to Jackson/Maple. Total 3 minutes. Zodiac agreed "abot 3 mins."
3. Donald Fouke takes 1 minute from Washington/Presidio Avenue to Jackson/Maple, traveling approx 30-35 mph.
4. This places Donald Fouke at Jackson/Maple at 9.59 pm, where he sees Zodiac near the intersection.
5. This journey took Zodiac 3 minutes, so he left the crime scene at 9.56 pm, and reached the top of Cherry at 9.57 pm.
6. If the kids statement is correct then Pelissetti arrived at 9.57 pm, when they pointed out Zodiac to him at the top of Cherry.
7. But we know the initial broadcast went out at 9.58 pm, so Pelissetti can not be at the Washington/Cherry intersection 1 minute before the dispatch went out. He couldn't be at the crime scene at 9.56 pm, because Zodiac was there.
8. His statement in the 2007 documentary that he received the initial dispatch at 9.55 pm makes perfect sense, it takes him 2 minutes to arrive, which is 9.57 pm, when he and the kids saw Zodiac at the top of Cherry.
9. But if Donald Fouke received the initial dispatch also at 9.55 pm, he arrived at Jackson/Maple at 9.56 pm.
10. Therefore Zodiac is at Jackson/Cherry at 9.57 pm, and at Jackson/Maple at 9.56 pm, separated by a 2 minute road on foot. This is a massive discrepancy.
11. Zodiac cannot be in two places at once. Somebody has to be mistaken. Unless two men are involved. If two men were in the taxicab, then one assailant must have left the taxicab at 9.53 pm, to arrive at Jackson/Maple at 9.56 pm. The other left the taxicab 3 minutes later. The Robbins kids looking out of the window subsequent to 9.53 pm.
12. The alternative is the Robbins statement is incorrect.
13. Or if there weren't two assailants, and the Robbins kids saw Zodiac, then Fouke didn't.
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Re: TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby Tahoe27 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am

I found a story a while back about another officer and his partner seeing who they thought was Zodiac as well.

---Officer Jerry Senkir who said he was one of two officers there that night who wondered if he let Zodiac "slip through his fingers". Tom talked to him after I posted about it.

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/5 ... dCzbvlVhBc -- (see page 3 for original article)


I think the more logical explanation is that times were simply mixed up. Is it possible Fouke and Zelms didn't see Zodiac? Sure, anything is possible--I just don't think so.
Image

"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby Marshall » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:03 pm

Richard Grinell wrote:2. Cherry takes 1 minute to walk, then 2 minutes to Jackson/Maple. Total 3 minutes....


If Zodiac walked casually down Cherry Street so as not to draw attention to himself, but then broke into a "shuffling lope" once he passed the corner, he could've scooted down Jackson Street in a lot less time than two minutes. I would imagine a shuffling lope would be at least twice as fast as a casual walk.

Also, when someone says the time is, say 9:58, that could mean a second past 9:57, or one second before 9:59.

So let's say Zodiac leaves the crime scene at 9:58:30
The dispatch is at 9:58:50
Pelissetti arrives at 9:59:30, which, by the clock, is about a minute after the dispatch. He just misses seeing Zodiac.
Z is shuffling his butt off down Jackson Street when Foulke spots him about 9:59:55, which is 65 seconds after the dispatch.

This gives Z a minute to walk down Cherry, and about a half minute to lope most of the way down Jackson
It gives Pelissetti 40 seconds to reach the cab, and it gives Foulke 65 seconds to reach the point Z leaves Jackson St.

You present an interesting case, but a few seconds difference here or there explains it all.
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Re: TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby mike_r » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:48 am

The proverbial fly in this ointment is that forgetting about the times presented in reports, what is crucial to understand is the timing of the encounters. Fouke did not run into Z until Pelissetti was well up Cherry Street, which took place after Lindsey had gesticulated to him that Z was at the corner of Jackson and Cherry, after Pelissetti had then walked over to and looked into the cab, after he herded the kids into the alcove of the home, after he spoke to them about the description, and after he had radioed the new description in to Dispatch. Fouke passed by the man and then continued to Cherry, turned down Cherry and ran into Pelissetti. Therefore, Fouke saw Z well after Lindsey had seen Z get to the corner and then "disappear" from his view, as he was distracted by the police car arriving at the scene.

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Re: TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby Richard Grinell » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:26 am

I know exactly what you mean Mike, but Donald Fouke never said in any report he turned into Cherry and met Pelissetti. As you alluded this is impossible. He did however say this in the 2007 documentary. But if we go on memories, it's clear he traveled onward past Cherry to Arguello Boulevard, where he stated in the 1989 documentary he got the amended update.
We know that Donald Fouke in the 1989 'Crimes of the Century' documentary, stated that after receiving the initial broadcast "We proceeded on Jackson Street towards Arguello continuing our search, as we arrived at Arguello Street the description of the suspect was changed to a white male adult, believing this suspect was possibly the one involved in the shooting we entered the Presidio of San Francisco and conducted a search on West Pacific Avenue, the opposite side of the wall and the last direction we observed the suspect going, we did not find the suspect." The question arose, as to why Donald Fouke was heading towards Arguello Boulevard, away from the crime scene of an "assault and robbery," when he should have been heading towards it. The logical assumption was that he did indeed stop 'Zodiac,' and Zodiac directed him that way.
This is why he never bumped into Pelissetti in Cherry at this jucture. After realizing the man he had just passed could be Zodiac, after the amended update, he continued on Arguello and into West Pacific Avenue continuing his search up to Julius Khan playground. After failing to spot anything he returned to Cherry, then meets Pelissetti. Now the timeline fits.
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Re: TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby Richard Grinell » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:47 am

Marshall wrote:
Richard Grinell wrote:2. Cherry takes 1 minute to walk, then 2 minutes to Jackson/Maple. Total 3 minutes....


If Zodiac walked casually down Cherry Street so as not to draw attention to himself, but then broke into a "shuffling lope" once he passed the corner, he could've scooted down Jackson Street in a lot less time than two minutes. I would imagine a shuffling lope would be at least twice as fast as a casual walk.

Also, when someone says the time is, say 9:58, that could mean a second past 9:57, or one second before 9:59.

So let's say Zodiac leaves the crime scene at 9:58:30
The dispatch is at 9:58:50
Pelissetti arrives at 9:59:30, which, by the clock, is about a minute after the dispatch. He just misses seeing Zodiac.
Z is shuffling his butt off down Jackson Street when Foulke spots him about 9:59:55, which is 65 seconds after the dispatch.

This gives Z a minute to walk down Cherry, and about a half minute to lope most of the way down Jackson
It gives Pelissetti 40 seconds to reach the cab, and it gives Foulke 65 seconds to reach the point Z leaves Jackson St.

You present an interesting case, but a few seconds difference here or there explains it all.


I know what your saying Marshall, but if Pelissetti arrives at 9.59:30 and Zodiac is at the top of Cherry (which is what the kids said), then Fouke sees Zodiac near the intersection of Jackson and Maple at 9.59:55, it has taken Zodiac 25 seconds to travel this section of Jackson, which is 145 meters in length. That is 5.8 meters a second. That is 17 seconds for 100 meters. The average person would struggle to sprint 14/15 seconds for 100 meters, especially a gut bucket like Zodiac. The shuffling lope would be more like a ballistic missile (maybe a slight exaggeration).

"p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab." I see no reason for Zodiac to lie on this occasion.
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Re: TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby morf13 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:10 pm

Both Fouke's & the kids descriptions of Zodiac were essentially the same. I think it's more likely there is a minute off here and there in the sightings
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Re: TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby mike_r » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:41 pm

These analyses where people parse every second of the night of the Stine murder have been used to little effect before to "prove" that Fouke had "enough time" to speak to Z and that this therefore "definitely happened," etc. Not convincing, and as Mike said, not only would there have to have been two Z' that night but they both would have had to be dressed similarly to one another and to have looked like one another. As Fincher might say, "Too Doppelganger-ish".

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Re: TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby Bayarea60s » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:32 pm

We will never get the exact happenings of the evening especially between Pelessetti and Fouke, they don't like each other, and I believe they didn't like each other before 10/11/69. 2 sgts, from the same precinct who work the same shifts on the same evening they know each other very well. They sure don't act like that at all. If they receive the dispatch at the same time, and if what Fouke says is accurate that he was approaching Washington St. on Presidio (we don't know where Pel was, he has never said, other than very close), then Fouke is 1 min. 15 secs from encountering Pel at Jackson and Cherry. Now Pel doesn't say the kid was at Cherry and Wash. looking down the st. telling Pel. he can see the guy. Pel has stated that as he pulls up on Wash. & Cherry he sees the kid crossing the street going towards the cab and he intercepts the kid and walks him back to his front door. Then the kid tells Pel, that the guy is white, Pel. then walks over to the cab to look at Stine, sees that he is dead. all this is happening while Fouke is coming up Jackson. Pel says he couldn't get to his squad car fast enough to update dispatch, he doesn't say that's what he did do. But if he did, times up, Fouke is already at Cherry and Jackson. You would think in almost 50 years we could at least get those two together and figure out the timeline so it comes close to working.
When they do meet at Jackson & Cherry, here's what each says; Fouke says "Pel. never told me the perp was white and that the cabbie was murdered".....Pel says, "Well Fouke never told me he saw anyone on Jackson". So we need to ask these 2, then what in the hell did you talk about? the Niners? C'mon. Fouke says he didn't hear the perp was white and the cabbie was dead until he left Pel. and was heading W. on Jackson towards Arguello. that's their story. Pel. is the RO on this case, and Fouke is the one who leads all of the SFPD into the park, like he said, he assumed that's where Z went. He had to assume it cause last he saw Z was at 3712/3713 Jackson St.
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Re: TWO ZODIAC'S ON JACKSON STREET

Postby Richard Grinell » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:27 am

"You would think in almost 50 years we could at least get those two together and figure out the timeline so it comes close to working." Using the testimony of Donald Fouke and Armond Pelissetti, and one perpetrator
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-new ... -by-minute
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