New Psychological Profile

General Discussion of the case history and details.

Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby traveller1st » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:47 am

Zresearch wrote: ...then, while looking into other un-deciphered codes I found the zodiac 308. I figured that the z308 should be a breeze compared to the work that I was doing.


It's the Z340 not the Z308. The first cipher he sent was the Z408. There is no Z308. I noticed you had posted it as 308 in another thread and I was going to change it but pointing it out seems easier. :)
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Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby CuriousCat » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:38 am

Zresearch wrote:
Elderly mother? I take it you suspect kane? His mother lived in the bay area.


I suspect pretty much every male in the free world who was old enough to commit the crimes.

There are too many "coulds" here, a dead end, but hey, if you never go down these paths we would never know they didn't lead anywhere, it helps to be open even if you are skeptical.


I am a skeptic but most people don't understand what a skeptic is. A skeptic is someone who doesn't rule anything out nor accept something as known without hard facts. Very little hard facts when it comes to Zodiac.

I started investigating my suspect mainly just because most people would never think to do so, and because most have trouble believing that such a person could even be a potential suspect, I thought it would be a path which few had taken. Unfortunately, I have been having incredible difficulties discounting this suspect.


I have no pet suspect. Closest to one would have been ALA, who I now highly doubt was Zodiac but even with some hard facts ruling him out I'm open to moving him back on the list if new info about him surfaces.
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Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby CuriousCat » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:22 pm

Zresearch wrote:
Required knowledge can become acquired knowledge, if you are simply willing to put in the effort.

Again, don't sell yourself short, like the modern philosopher terence mckenna once said:

Nobody knows anything you don't know, and even if they do, it's not your knowledge so what good is it doing you?
The idea that it's OK for you not to understand mathematics, or not to play the violin, because somebody else does it very well, is a complete cop-out.


Well, the codes aren't something I've given up on, just something I never started on. That Terence McKenna quote surprised me because I once had a conversation with my significant other along the same lines. They were talking about a person we knew and asked me "Have you ever met someone who made you feel stupid, like they're smarter than you about everything". It was perhaps arrogance on my part by without thinking about it I replied "No! Someone might know more about a particular subject than I do, but that doesn't make them smarter than me". I said that in the context of the person we were discussing, who was very well educated, but had got into trouble doing something I thought was very stupid and something I would have never done. So yeah, I understand what you are saying. I'm not going to try to out engineer and engineer though, if you know what I mean. I try to stay in my lane.

Again, researching serial killers is incredibly out of character for me, it's something that I have very little interest in, and I severely dislike the morbid aspects of such work. However, I love challenges, I love mysteries, and I love puzzles, I also have an unhealthy interest in the bizarre, in all those strange things that are resting on the edges of mundane reality.


Same here, Zodiac is the only serial killer I have any interest in. I think the love of challenging puzzles is one reason why, that and the unsolved mystery aspect. I just want to know who in the hell he was/is and there has to be a way to find out. I don't think for a moment I'm the person to solve it, but maybe I can stumble on something that can help the person who finally does.


Sorry to go so far off topic, ok back to a potential psychological profile.



Well, I think much of what we are discussing applies to Zodiac's profile. Like not discounting your own abilities and smarts. I think Zodiac was much the same way. I don't think he had an inferiority complex, but a superiority complex. He thought he was just as good or better then those pursuing him and that was part of the appeal to him. That's why I said I think murder became almost secondary in his "game" as he found the thrill of eluding everyone as much or even more appealing than the thrill he got from killing.

I'm not sure it really matters if he was married, had friends or was your stereotypical loner, whichever it was, he certainly had plenty of "alone time" which allowed him to do "his thing". That could be due to his occupation as much as anything. I do think he traveled or at least moved around enough to be familiar with the areas he committed his attacks.

I know some view him as totally insane and possibly had been in mental institutions. He was obviously insane, a very sick puppy, but not to the point where it disabled him mentally. More of an evil type of insanity. If he was truly mentally unstable to the point of doing something that led to being committed to a hospital, I think it would have caused him to make a mistake that would have led to his apprehension. So while a nutcase, he was still capable of carrying on a normal enough type existence to not draw attention.

I have to wonder if that's what caused him to stop killing, or at least stop being so public about his murders. I think he had a good scare thrown into him because of the Stein murder and police were closer to catching him than even they realize. Maybe he thought he was getting careless, and he didn't want the "game" to end. Not due to his mistake anyway, but he was aware someone might be smart enough to catch him and he accepted that possibility. He knew he was at risk of being caught and his "game" ended, but he wanted it to be by a worthy adversary, not someone who stumbled into it.

I have only recently learned about the old crime mag/comic book aspect to some of his M.O. I find that very interesting and highly relevant. I think one thing that hooked me about Zodiac is that I grew up being a comic book junkie myself, so I see the appeal. That drawing of him with the hood he wore during the LB attack always looked to me like a comic book villain, and I now believe that was how he saw himself. He was the bad guy who always got away and would return sometimes in the near future.
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Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby MrNemo » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:57 pm

profiler112 wrote:While it is entirely circumstantial, it doesn’t seem as though many people have accurately psychologically profiled Zodiac. While it’s tough to psychologically profile an anonymous individual, if there is an individual whose crimes follow a similar chronology as Zodiac, and was caught; it is Sam Berkowitz (Son of Sam).

1. Both chose random victims
2. Both targeted couples
3. Sam served in Army and Zodiac is believed by most to have military background
4. Both sent taunting letters to media; ostensibly seeking notoriety
5. Both were able to send taunting letters to media, commit murders in large cities, and elude any police suspicion; for several years.

Sam is often profiled in the media as a schizophrenic individual due to his behaviors after his capture, but several years later once he was seemingly resigned to his fate he admitted that the bizarre behavior, was a hoax. He stated that he had thought about committing his crimes for years, and more or less planned these crimes; ostensibly with the intention of eluding capture. This speaks to an individual with a form of anti-social personality disorder whose lack of social success acts as the impetus for his crimes, who receives the attention one with this disorder craves through the letters to the media which gain him notoriety, who receives gratification through the adrenaline derived from committing high-risk of capture crimes against multiple individuals in non-desolate areas, the frequency of the killings speaks to a lack of impulse control which corroborates the notion he derived gratification through the acts themselves and reveled in the subsequent notoriety. Over time both individuals need for the gratification derived by the adrenaline of committing the crimes lead to further crimes of increasingly high-risk of capture. Sam changed his method around during his last crime and was captured as a direct result, though it is likely had he not done so these crimes would have remained unsolved due to his ‘skill’ at committing such crimes and the fact he was not even known to law enforcement until his final crime. Zodiac’s final confirmed crime, in which he killed a cabbie and then walked away, was one in which law enforcement encountered him and due to a dispatcher error his description was not that of the man law enforcement was told witnesses had observed committing the crime. Had law enforcement been given a correct description it is very likely Zodiac would have been captured, it was simply luck that this crime did not result in his capture. However, the witnesses who observed the crime were able to help police craft a legible perp sketch and Zodiac seemingly acknowledged this close capture in his last confirmed letter. The adrenaline derived from encountering law enforcement and walking away resulted in the end of his crimes because there was simply no high that could match that of encountering law enforcement and walking away still unknown. This speaks to the facts Zodiacs highly valued his anonymity despite his desperation for the attention he got from his letters. This also would help explain why he sent the letters which he claimed contained his identity, though the only one ever solved reveals his identity was not contained in the letter, and he had ostensibly done so for the thrill of the letter itself.

While Ross Sullivan seems to be the new hot theory as to Zodiac’s identity, this is unlikely if you compare him to what we know about Berkowitz and what I just outlined about Zodiac. Zodiac despite his social failures possessed the emotional intelligence to blend into society like Berkowitz without being an outcast (unlike Sullivan who was arrested under bizzare circumstances and institutionalized) and the intelligence to methodically plan out his crimes and allude capture (he is more similar to BTK in this respect, though unlike BTK he was not as obsessed with the method or manner in which the killings occurred). BTK had better impulse control than Zodiac and Son of Sam, but Zodiac seemingly possessed the intelligence of BTK when it came to planning his crimes methodically. However, the main distinction between these other two individuals and Zodiac is the fact he may have reached his peak after his final crime in terms of the adrenaline and subsequent gratification; he knew there was nothing that could match what he felt and he moved on. It is possible Zodiac was not able to commit further crimes due to being deceased or immobilized, but his profile more or less speaks to a sociopathic individual who simply realized he could not match his last crime and moved on to other thrill seeking activities.

Unlike many, due to his psychological profile, I don’t believe Zodiac’s real identity has ever been uncovered. There is also a good chance he is still out there due to the fact he was seemingly young (20s) when these crimes occurred, and for these reasons I believe new avenues and individuals should be explored rather than harping on the same bunch of suspects who all have several strikes against them being Zodiac. BTK proved that these sadistic individuals can go decades without their identity being uncovered, and many don’t seem to acknowledge Zodiac’s intelligence, and need for adrenaline. I would guess we have a better chance of finding Zodiac by looking through the flight logs of all individuals who engaged in skydiving in the Bay Area during that period than the current bunch we speculated on. I could be totally off base here, but my gut says this is closer to the reality.






Great break down. I get the feeling none of the suspects is the murderer like you. I also am under the distinct impression that this guy lived in Vallejo or somewhere in Solano County and grew up in that area or lived there for a significant period of time. I was interested to know if it is possible and if so has it ever been attempted to use a computer database to try and filter out a list of possible people? The Vallejo population in 1970 was listed at a little over 60,000. Is there enough data remaining or acquired to begin with to throw all these people in and take out just the white males. Then, of course, take everyone from say 26-45 or so. Take out the singles. Owners of cars. Lower incomes. Maybe prior military personnel (though I think this animal was not prior military, but a wannabe enthusiast type maybe). Then maybe everyone with a criminal record. Maybe, if possible, further dwindle those records down to ASPD type offenses (violence, burglary, etc.). If it were possible maybe traffic citations in late night hours. And any other information that could be factored out and see what kind of list you get. This thing is most likely, if ever solved, going to be some mundane, routine method (traffic ticket at the wrong time, some neighbor that had told police back then that something was fishy, etc.). Just regular, run of the mill police work. We've spent 50 years going over this code and fed it into super computers, just wondering what might shake loose if we fed the above mentioned things in one and went after that list like we have the letters and ciphers this animal left. I'm no anthropologist, but I get the impression there weren't as many people back then with criminal backgrounds, so maybe the list would be something somewhat manageable. I know this is not a ground breaking idea and is very basic analytic stuff, but sometimes we over think solutions to seemingly perplexing problems. Nothing else has worked.
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Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby joku » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:43 pm

On another board a member did this type of demographical breakdown and if I remember correctly, the resulting number of individuals living in Vallejo at that time, who fit the gender-race-age criteria of Zodiac, was something like 2000 people. If you further narrow it down by shoe size, height, hair colour and weight, you probably won't end up with too many people.
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Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby MrNemo » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:58 pm

[quote="joku"]On another board a member did this type of demographical breakdown and if I remember correctly, the resulting number of individuals living in Vallejo at that time, who fit the gender-race-age criteria of Zodiac, was something like 2000 people. If you further narrow it down by shoe size, height, hair colour and weight, you probably won't end up with too many people.[/quote

Awesome. Thanks dude. Don't know if shoe size would be possible, but maybe you could estimate if you could get some heights and other physical characteristics. What might be more possible certainly is criminal records. Then you should be able to sift out those classic ASPD style offenses. Yearly incomes and marital status might possibly be available too. Prior military service could be attainable as well. The list could quite possibly be manageable with as many of us out there who would love to see this jerk unmasked. I mean, it seems as though significant time and even money are being spent on his goose chases and looking for patterns that quite often are simply not there.
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Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby Zresearch » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:22 am

traveller1st wrote:
Zresearch wrote: ...then, while looking into other un-deciphered codes I found the zodiac 308. I figured that the z308 should be a breeze compared to the work that I was doing.


It's the Z340 not the Z308. The first cipher he sent was the Z408. There is no Z308. I noticed you had posted it as 308 in another thread and I was going to change it but pointing it out seems easier. :)


Yeah, I frequently get those numbers mixed up, clearly I meant the 340, but got the title confused. If you could correct those errors I would appreciate it. I have only been researching this case for a few months, so I still make minor errors from time to time.
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Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby Zresearch » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:26 am

CuriousCat wrote:
Zresearch wrote:
Elderly mother? I take it you suspect kane? His mother lived in the bay area.


I suspect pretty much every male in the free world who was old enough to commit the crimes.

There are too many "coulds" here, a dead end, but hey, if you never go down these paths we would never know they didn't lead anywhere, it helps to be open even if you are skeptical.


I am a skeptic but most people don't understand what a skeptic is. A skeptic is someone who doesn't rule anything out nor accept something as known without hard facts. Very little hard facts when it comes to Zodiac.

I started investigating my suspect mainly just because most people would never think to do so, and because most have trouble believing that such a person could even be a potential suspect, I thought it would be a path which few had taken. Unfortunately, I have been having incredible difficulties discounting this suspect.


I have no pet suspect. Closest to one would have been ALA, who I now highly doubt was Zodiac but even with some hard facts ruling him out I'm open to moving him back on the list if new info about him surfaces.


I have a suspect that I can not rule out for blue rock springs... ...but "pet suspect" is an exaggeration, it's simply someone that I can not rule out.
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Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby Zresearch » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:28 am

I'm not going to try to out engineer and engineer though, if you know what I mean. I try to stay in my lane.


Your "lane" is defined solely by you, and whether you believe it or not you are capable of doing anything that anybody else can do, it's just a matter of effort and time.

It always saddens me to see others limit themselves. The information to acquire the skills and knowledge for nearly anything is readily available, you simply need to put forward the effort.

Regardless of how "bad" you may be at something, if you persevere for long enough you will be able to master it.

...in my case, I just like to understand things., I could really care less about being "smart", I just need to personally understand the world around me, plus I have always been an autodidact.

Well, I think much of what we are discussing applies to Zodiac's profile. Like not discounting your own abilities and smarts. I think Zodiac was much the same way. I don't think he had an inferiority complex, but a superiority complex. He thought he was just as good or better then those pursuing him and that was part of the appeal to him. That's why I said I think murder became almost secondary in his "game"


Was he not "better" than Those perusing him? I mean, nobody ever caught him. I don't think it's a "superiority complex" if you are accurate, I mean, if he actually was superior than its not a "complex", it's simply being aware of your abilities.

Though in all Honesty, I don't think intelligence is what prevented zodiac from being caught.

I have always felt that murder was secondary to the game for zodiac. Zodiac was not sadistic, he never did anything he did not have to do to complete the murders, and in many cases it seems that he really did not enjoy the murders.


I always thought the letters were written to sound like what you think a sick person would say, and then the costume at lake berryessa, what was the point? Why an elaborate costume if the only people who are going to see it are going to die? I think you are right, zodiac did seem a lot like an invented character or villain.

I have to wonder if that's what caused him to stop killing, or at least stop being so public about his murders. I think he had a good scare thrown into him because of the Stein murder and police were closer to catching him than even they realize. Maybe he thought he was getting careless, and he didn't want the "game" to end. Not due to his mistake anyway, but he was aware someone might be smart enough to catch him and he accepted that possibility. He knew he was at risk of being caught and his "game" ended, but he wanted it to be by a worthy adversary, not someone who stumbled into it.


Makes sense.

Though I am not sure he ever intended for anybody to catch him, not even a "worthy adversary". I think the letters, the ciphers, and many other klews were intended to prevent zodiac from getting caught, rather than lead someone to him.

From the letters we would assume that zodiac kills for pleasure, though this does not seem accurate.

From the letters we would assume that zodiac hates police, however, if zodiac was a police officer then this supposed clue that "zodiac hates police" would be throwing you off the trail.

You have to assume that zodiac was placing information in the letters which would draw investigators away from him, rather than draw some "worthy adversary" to him.

I'm not sure it really matters if he was married, had friends or was your stereotypical loner, whichever it was, he certainly had plenty of "alone time" which allowed him to do "his thing". That could be due to his occupation as much as anything. I do think he traveled or at least moved around enough to be familiar with the areas he committed his attacks.

I know some view him as totally insane and possibly had been in mental institutions. He was obviously insane, a very sick puppy, but not to the point where it disabled him mentally. More of an evil type of insanity. If he was truly mentally unstable to the point of doing something that led to being committed to a hospital, I think it would have caused him to make a mistake that would have led to his apprehension. So while a nutcase, he was still capable of carrying on a normal enough type existence to not draw attention.


I don't see zodiac as a loner, most serial killers are actually very "normal" regarding their daily life. They are generally very good at being deceptive. John Wayne gacy was active in his community and even had met Ronald Reagan, or look at Richard Kuklinski, this guys own family had no idea what he was up to.

Most "loners" are simply people who want to be left alone.

I also don't see zodiac as "insane" in the classic sense, he has a very similar psychology to a military individual or a police officer, and it seems he views murder in a similar manner.
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Re: New Psychological Profile

Postby CuriousCat » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:48 pm

Zresearch wrote:
I'm not going to try to out engineer and engineer though, if you know what I mean. I try to stay in my lane.


Your "lane" is defined solely by you, and whether you believe it or not you are capable of doing anything that anybody else can do, it's just a matter of effort and time.

It always saddens me to see others limit themselves. The information to acquire the skills and knowledge for nearly anything is readily available, you simply need to put forward the effort.


You misunderstand what I'm saying, I just think my time is better spent looking at other aspects, like the comic book/detective magazine aspect. I find the codes search a bit useless. I think either Zodiac was smart enough not to leave his identity in one, or if he did it is so heavily encrypted, like a code within a code, it will take a true code geek to figure it out. I just don't think the codes will solve the case.



Was he not "better" than Those perusing him? I mean, nobody ever caught him.


Yes, I suppose he was.


I don't think it's a "superiority complex" if you are accurate, I mean, if he actually was superior than its not a "complex", it's simply being aware of your abilities.


I think it was a complex because he felt the need to prove to those pursuing him he was better than them, and also to himself.

I have always felt that murder was secondary to the game for zodiac. Zodiac was not sadistic, he never did anything he did not have to do to complete the murders, and in many cases it seems that he really did not enjoy the murders.


I suppose it depends on ones definition of sadistic but yeah, it's not like he tortured them. I think his point in killing was to instill fear in the general public and to make the police seem inept.


I always thought the letters were written to sound like what you think a sick person would say, and then the costume at lake berryessa, what was the point? Why an elaborate costume if the only people who are going to see it are going to die? I think you are right, zodiac did seem a lot like an invented character or villain.


I think he decided he needed to hide his face, since he had one victim survive, but just a ski mask wasn't good enough. He became the comic book villain he always wanted to be that day. It was probably unwieldy and made it harder to do his thing, so it was the only time he used it.

Then again, it might not have been the only time, it was just the only time we know he used it and someone lived to tell about it.

I believe Mike Mageau described him as having a "large, round face and curly hair". I always thought that a bit odd. It's possible Zodiac wore and earlier version of his hood. Mageau only caught a fleeting glimpse of him, and that was after being shot several times.

Though I am not sure he ever intended for anybody to catch him, not even a "worthy adversary".


No, I didn't mean he intended to be caught, just that he knew it was a possibility. That was one of his thrills from "the game"

From the letters we would assume that zodiac kills for pleasure, though this does not seem accurate.

From the letters we would assume that zodiac hates police, however, if zodiac was a police officer then this supposed clue that "zodiac hates police" would be throwing you off the trail.


I think it started out with murder for him but he found being elusive and mysterious was even better. I do think he had some resentment towards police, but I think it was because he had tried to become one and didn't make it. "The game" was his way of proving he was better than those who did make it.

You have to assume that zodiac was placing information in the letters which would draw investigators away from him, rather than draw some "worthy adversary" to him.


I think he claimed some that he did not do, just to throw them a curve ball, but a worthy pursuer would be able to figure out which ones.

I don't see zodiac as a loner, most serial killers are actually very "normal" regarding their daily life. They are generally very good at being deceptive. John Wayne gacy was active in his community and even had met Ronald Reagan, or look at Richard Kuklinski, this guys own family had no idea what he was up to.

Most "loners" are simply people who want to be left alone.


I think loner used when referring to Zodiac would mean someone who isn't married with kids, but yes, he could have just as easily been married.

I also don't see zodiac as "insane" in the classic sense, he has a very similar psychology to a military individual or a police officer, and it seems he views murder in a similar manner.


Agreed, he wasn't insane to the point of being mentally disabled. He was functionally insane.
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